Date is 2014-10-31, times are UTC+10.

Day changed to 31 Oct 2014
06:59 <+alanc> good afternoon
07:00 < agd5f> hello
07:01 < whot_> good morning
07:01 -!- You're now known as whot
07:01 -!- Irssi: #xf-bod: Total of 14 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 3 voices, 11 normal]
07:01 < clinhart> good evening
07:02 < stukreit> hi
07:02 < whot> clinhart: hey! thanks for joining
07:04 < whot> mupuf_, egbert, keithp: ping
07:04 <+egbert> hi!
07:06 < clinhart> whot, my pleasure. Thanks for inviting me.
07:08 < whot> hmm, I was hoping we'd have a full complement for the OPW stuff, but apparently not... anyway, let's get started.
07:09 < whot> main item on the list is OPW, we'll do that first so clinhart doesn't need to stay up for the other stuff. we'll worry about the rest of the agenda afterwards
07:09 < clinhart> Thanks.
07:10 < whot> as sent to the board list, we have three applicants for one spot of agreed funding, and we need to pick one of the three. keith sent a couple of comments out, the only thing I have to add here is that Laura got back to me and said she has mostly backed off the test porting from glean. so there shouldn't be much conflict with Juliet's proposal.
07:11 < whot> And there should be enough work left with: "here are 13
07:11 < whot> tests remaining to port, and several that need a quick glance in order to
07:11 < whot> ensure that Piglit tests already cover their functionality."
07:12 < whot> in short, I don't think lack of work would affect Juliet's proposal
07:12 <+egbert> whot: ok, that's good to know!
07:12 < whot> clinhart: question on the server-side XCB stuff: how much of that depends on yet-to-be-merged efforts in xcb?
07:13 < clinhart> about 50% of the effort
07:13 < whot> clinhart: as in, is there a dependency chain that Asal/Jaya would have to wait for upstream xcb to get done first before they could even start?
07:13 <+alanc> since I've never looked at glean or piglit, I don't know - is porting a test about a 1 week job?  (since 13 tests / 3 months = ~ 1 / week)
07:13 < whot> clinhart: and if so, is that expected to be done by Dec 9 (official start date)
07:13 < clinhart> No, they can do the first 50% with current upstream.
07:14 < whot> alanc: Laura said "I have been able to port six tests in 4 weeks, but that includes
07:14 < whot> working on other projects and interacting with the Piglit community to get
07:14 < whot> patches reviewed.
07:14 < clinhart> There 's some chance that we will have merged all to upstream by Dec 9.
07:15 < whot> I admit not knowing Laura enough to judge how much faster she would be to Juliet, so it's hard for me to compare.
07:15 <+alanc> whot: okay, so it's a reasonable amount of work for the time frame for someone less experienced on piglit
07:15 -!- marcoz [] has joined #xf-bod
07:15 <+alanc> it's at least the right order of magnitude, not "finish a test a day and then have 2.5 months left over"
07:16 < whot> clinhart: ok, thanks, that sounds good
07:16 <+egbert> what is the goal anyhow? is this that the participant hits the spot or that the participant contibutes a chunk of useful work which will further the project?
07:16 <+egbert> i would think the second. 
07:17 < clinhart> Merging to upstream really depends on how much time Ran Benita has for reviewing my stuff.
07:17 < whot> marcoz: backlog so far for you to catch up
07:17 <+egbert> so even if the goal is not fully reached we should be able to call the project a success.
07:17 <+alanc> I believe like GSoC/EVoC the primary goal is that the participant learns how to be a productive member of a FOSS community, and getting a chunk of useful work is a added benefit we hope for
07:18 < marcoz> thanks whot 
07:18 <+egbert> alanc: exactly
07:19 <+alanc> hitting the exact spot is not the goal - I was more worried about finishing too quickly and having nothing left to do - though I'm sure if that happens we can find more tests to write
07:19 < whot> alanc: I agree (with both your last comments)
07:19 <+egbert> right.
07:20 <+alanc> for the xcb-in-the-server projects, I'll bet that there's no way anyone gets every single extension plus the core protocol ported in 3 months, but getting a framework and design in place will be huge progress on something we've talked about for years
07:20 < clinhart> Right. All extensions will not be possible.
07:20 < agd5f> I think maybe part of Jaya's proposal got cut off along with juliet's in the original email
07:21 <+egbert> definitely not. but the goal should be that participant and the community in general get a better understanding of what's involved.
07:21 < clinhart> But the most ambitious goal is getting XInput to work. Then everything else will be kind of trivial.
07:21 <+alanc> I've spent more time on that damn protocol code in the server than most people on the planet, and I'm sure I couldn't get it all done in 3 months
07:21 <+egbert> if i understand the proposal right (i just saw one concrete proposal) the goal is to start simple.
07:21 <+alanc> yes
07:22 <+egbert> that this seems reasonable
07:22 < clinhart> So we can deliver at least some result if it turns out to be more complicated than thought.
07:22 <+egbert> exactly
07:22 <+alanc> yeah, my copy of the mail from peter cuts off mid sentence in Jaya's proposal - "which help newbies get linux at bay"
07:23 <+alanc> and then none of juliet's
07:23 < clinhart> Both proposals from Jaya and Asalle have almost the same timeline.
07:23 <+egbert> yeah, here as well. and since it has the board list footer this must have happened before it has hit the server.
07:24 <+alanc> I do wonder if we chose to approve two students for the same project if that would help or hinder - I know GSoC has rules against joint projects so each student can be appraised fairly & independently, I don't know about OPW
07:25 < whot> ok, sent the three applications to the board list again, hopefully not cut off this time
07:25 -!- laura-ir1 [] has joined #xf-bod
07:25 <+alanc> got it all the way down to your sig this time
07:25 <+egbert> since we are doing this thing for the first time it might be a bit too ambitious to start with a joint project.
07:25 < agd5f> yup whole thing came though
07:25 < clinhart> alanc, do you mean Asalle and Jaya for the XServer stuff?
07:26 < whot> laura-ir1: oh, hi Laura. thanks for joining
07:26 < laura-ir1> It took some troubleshooting.
07:26 <+alanc> yes, since they were the two that put forth proposals for the same task
07:26 < whot> laura-ir1: back log so far, give it a quick skim if you can
07:27 <+alanc> ah yeah, I see the previous copy ended right where there was a line with a single . on - ancient mail standards at work
07:27 < whot> alanc: sorry, my fault. copy/paste from the opw system was a bit painful
07:27 < whot> I'll probably find a "export to text" button when I go back though :)
07:27 <+alanc> it's okay, got it now
07:27 < clinhart> alanc, I think this could work. They can work parallel on different tasks such as generator, testcases, xserver integration, fixing xcb-xml bugs.
07:28 < whot> I'm not a big fan of two applicants working on the same project. I think our resources are better spent making it two projects in serial
07:29 <+alanc> ah, I see now that Jaya does have job committments as well
07:29 < whot> that way we can work whatever we learn in the first round into the application for the second
07:29 < whot> for all we know we may hit a brick wall a couple weeks in
07:29 < clinhart> serial is always more efficient.
07:29 < whot> alanc: yes, both Juliet and Jaya have committments outside
07:30 <+alanc> fair enough - I do wish we'd had time to get more project ideas up before the application period, but that's what we get for starting late
07:30 < agd5f> well, I think we have 3 good candidates for one slot, so that's good
07:31 < whot> alanc: noob mistakes, presumably we get it better next time :) but then again, more applicants wouldn't make things easier anyway
07:31 <+alanc> heh, no, it wouldn't
07:31 < agd5f> having more candidates would just make it harder :)
07:31 <+keithp> sorry for having a conflict; I'm back
07:32 < whot> laura-ir1: do you want to add anything regarding Juliet's proposal?
07:33 < agd5f> my preference (based purely on my perceived usefulness to the upstream projects) would be for one of the xcb projects.
07:34 < laura-ir1> Regarding my background, my master's thesis was in OpenGL, and as far as I can tell, Juliet does not have OpenGL experience.  I think porting one or two Piglit tests would be a fair amount of work for her.
07:34 < laura-ir1> It's not a whole lot of work for me, I've just never been part of the open source community before.
07:34 < laura-ir1> I've been in it for about a month now.
07:35 < whot> clinhart: Asal is in UKR, that works fine with you regarding timezones, right? Should only be an hour off or so, how's your reachability during the day?
07:36 < clinhart> Yes timezone is fine. It's two hours difference. And I have time throughout the day because I run my own business, so I decide about use of my time.
07:36 < whot> clinhart: you've already mentioned that Jaya would have enough overlap with you, iirc
07:37 < clinhart> Yes, there is at least one hour after her work when I am still in my office and therefore can interactively work with her. Timezone diff helps here.
07:37 < whot> laura-ir1: did you sign up as mentor for OPW too? or just Brian? He never got back to me regarding timezone overlaps
07:37 < whot> laura-ir1: iirc Juliet has limited access to a computer lab, which can make it tricky (she's in the same lab as Check)
07:40 < laura-ir1> I'm not officially a mentor.
07:41 < laura-ir1> I've been conversing with her.  She seems to work late in the night in her timezone, because I've seen her on irc and emailing at 2 pm PDT and such.
07:41 <+alanc> if it's a limited access lab, does it have sufficiently useful GPU hardware for the GL testing?
07:42 < laura-ir1> For instance, she sent a patch on Oct. 20 at 4:41 pm PDT
07:42 < whot> ok, ok, that's good then, she doesn't have the same restrictions as Check then (iirc his lab closed at 9pm local time, 4:41 PDT would be almost 1am in Buea)
07:43 < laura-ir1> idk
07:43 < whot> so scap my last comments, timezones shouldn't be much of an issue then
07:44 < whot> scrap, even
07:44 < whot> ok, do we have any questions left that need answering?
07:46 < whot> clinhart, laura-ir1: any more additions?
07:47 < clinhart> I have 17 years experience with the X-Server code through work on my screenrecorder product.
07:48 < clinhart> That should help with guiding the project in a good direction.
07:49 <+alanc> sounds good, that's longer than half the board members
07:50 < whot> hehe
07:50 <+alanc> obviously not the half that includes keithp 8-)
07:50 < whot> ok, so let's figure out what we're doing to do, we need to vote on who we take on as OPW applicant
07:51  * alanc does have another meeting in 10 minutes
07:52 < whot> I'll go ahead, my preference in that order is Asal, Juliet, Jaya. main factor here is that Jaya has work committments, and Juliet too has tests etc. coming up that would reduce her involvement in OPW (unless she works day+night, but...)
07:52 < whot> I think all three are good proposals, and both projects are useful, so that one factor makes the decision for me a bit easier :)
07:52 <+alanc> I was thinking the same order
07:53 <+egbert> yeah, i tend to think the same. work commitments and exams can definitely get in the way of succeeding with this project.
07:53 < agd5f> I agree on the order as well
07:53 < marcoz> ditto
07:54 < stukreit> "
07:54 <+egbert> apart from this i could not find any compelling arguments. usefulness - ok, but one could then ask why it was on the list if it wasn't useful.
07:55 < whot> keithp: comments from you?
07:55 <+egbert> i don't want to rule out anyone for her geographical location (ie timezone) either.
07:56 < whot> egbert: imo TZ issues are mostly a mentor matching issue. Lyude during GSoC kept the same working hours as I had, despite him being on EST
07:57 <+egbert> whot: sure. of course this can contribute to the success of a project. but this depends on the applicant. some people need less mentoring than others.
07:57 < whot> of course
07:58 < whot> anyway, so it looks like Asal is the winner, can we get the formal vote on this please? +1 from me
07:59 <+alanc> +1
07:59 < stukreit> +1
07:59 <+egbert> +1
07:59 < marcoz> +1
07:59 < whot> vote carried, thanks
07:59 < agd5f> +1
08:00 < whot> clinhart: congrats :)
08:00 < clinhart> Thanks. I am looking forward to my mentorship with Asalle.
08:01 <+alanc> please let us know if you need any help from us during the program
08:01 < whot> ok, I'll get that into the system and email everyone as needed. sorry for Juliet and Jaya, and sorry Laura. thanks for your help though
08:01 < whot> hopefully we can motivate them to stay with the projects anyway
08:01 < clinhart> Yes, I'll let you know when I need help. Thanks for the offer.
08:01 < whot> alanc: that's all on the OPW stuff I think, so you can buzz off to the other meeting
08:02 < whot> clinhart, laura-ir1: same for you guys, thanks for joining
08:02 <+egbert> please let the other applicants know that it was a hard decision and we did like all their applications. and ask them to apply for the next program (even gsoc or evoc if applicable)
08:02 -!- laura-ir1 [] has left #xf-bod []
08:03 < clinhart> Yes, I'll tell Jaya.
08:03 < clinhart> Bye.
08:04 -!- clinhart [] has left #xf-bod []
08:04 < whot> only other item I had on the list was: XDC payments. stukreit everything sorted?
08:05 < stukreit> I've started sending out payments.
08:06 < stukreit> still doing different things for each payee, agd5f got paid this am, lyuude last week
08:07 <+keithp> whot: sorry for overlapping meetings; I think Asalle is a fine choice, and that I'd love to see the others come back when they have fewer external commitments
08:08 < whot> keithp: np, thanks
08:08 < agd5f> stukreit, I can confirm a pending incoming payment.  thanks!
08:09 < whot> stukreit: excellent, thanks
08:10 < stukreit> yw
08:10 < whot> we're overtime now, do we have anything else left? I'd say thanks to mupuf_ for XDC but he's not here so he'll just miss out on that ;)
08:10 <+keithp> mupuf_ gets major props for a well run and otherwise excellent conference
08:11 < stukreit> It was the most interesting and best experience I've had.  Not to diss previous, just that things came together so well
08:11 < agd5f> yeah, excellent work.  great location too
08:11 < marcoz> indeed
08:13 < whot> alrighty, that's all for today then. thanks for joining, see you in 2 weeks.