Date is 2015-01-23, times are UTC+10.

--- Day changed Fri Jan 23 2015
07:59 < mupuf> hello guys!
07:59 < mupuf> Tell me I finally made it to the meeting!
07:59 <+egbert> hi guys!
07:59 < whot> good morning
07:59 <+egbert> hi mupuf!
07:59 < stukreit> hi
08:00 < marcoz> hi mupuf 
08:00 < whot> mupuf: you made it! :)
08:00  * mupuf arrived 2h early actually
08:00 < marcoz> he's just kidding. we're alll bots
08:00 < mupuf> some miscalculation on my side
08:00 < mupuf> finland is not in the same timezone as france
08:00 < mupuf> marcoz: hey ehy
08:00 < marcoz> :)
08:01 < marcoz> how's the icy north?
08:01 < whot> alanc, keithp, agd5f: ping
08:01 <+alanc> good afternoon
08:01 <+keithp> whot: teleconf in parallel
08:01 < mupuf> marcoz: quite warm, actually
08:01 -!- Guest2917 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
08:01 <+alanc> I thought it was always dark o'clock in finland this time of year, regardless of time zone
08:01 < mupuf> well, it is apparently -6°C
08:02 < marcoz> mupuf:  quite warm at -6?  yea, you've acclimated quite quickly. ;)
08:02 < mupuf> ah ah, it is not that bad ... although that's true that the sun never shines hight
08:02 < mupuf> high*
08:02 < mupuf> ah ah, I guess so
08:02 < agd5f> hi
08:02 <+alanc> but the all-night hacking sessions must be really productive
08:02 < mupuf> the air is not humid
08:03 < mupuf> yeah, probably. I'll get my computers tomorrow ... but without a desk I'm not sure when I'm going to be able to install them
08:03 < whot> alright, I think that's all of us. Agenda for today: XDC, SPI Q&A, Election
08:04 < whot> I don't have any OPW status update, sorry. forgot to ask Chris
08:04 < whot> egbert: want to start with the Election bits?
08:04 <+egbert> sure
08:04 <+egbert> i sent out a draft for the schedule and a proposal for the announcement.
08:05 <+egbert> there are a few things that need to be done before we can start with anything.
08:05 <+egbert> lemme give a list:
08:05 <+egbert> 1. election committee: 
08:05 <+egbert> i guess all bod members not up for election.
08:06 <+egbert> 2. election ml:
08:06 <+egbert> i dno't have access to expo. nor the mls
08:07 <+egbert> i was not even able to access the bod wiki. someone has to set up the credentials so i can create pages on the wiki.
08:07 <+alanc> yes, election commitee should be agd5f, egbert, keithp, and marcoz
08:07 < mupuf> egbert: I also would like to get access to those :D
08:07 <+egbert> 3. the member site: i don't have access to this either and i'm not too comfortable to play around with the database.
08:07 <+alanc> you need to get keithp to get one of his sysadmin minions to do that
08:08 <+alanc> I have access to the wiki & expo, but not admin access to add others
08:08 <+egbert> also - do we have to expire all members before we ask for renewal?
08:08 <+alanc> I think I am the mailing list admin though, from last year's election
08:08 <+alanc> we haven't bothered with expiration or renewal crap in most years I think
08:09 < whot> I think we should this year
08:09 <+egbert> alanc: if you can get me the password i will fix the ml stuff.
08:09 <+alanc> shit
08:09 <+alanc> uses an invalid security certificate. The certificate is only valid for The certificate expired on 01/22/15 12:36 PM. The current time is 01/22/15 02:09 PM. 
08:09 <+egbert> who has admin access to expo?
08:09 <+alanc> add another to the todo list, replace the ssl cert that expired 2 hours ago
08:09 < whot> I don't know what the member list looks like but given that we need majority for the bylaw changes I'd like to have current members only in the list
08:10 < whot> oops
08:10 < mupuf> whot: agreed
08:10 <+alanc> egbert: no one really knows
08:10 <+alanc> ajax, daniels, keithp have been suspsected in the past
08:10 <+egbert> great!
08:10 <+egbert> keithp is here and he's on the committee
08:10 <+alanc> there is an "eich" account in expos /etc/passwd for you already
08:11 <+egbert> yes, i'm not sure if i have the password still.
08:11 <+alanc> oh, /etc/passwd suggests tollef & benjsc also have root
08:11 <+egbert> this was set up in 2006?
08:11 <+alanc> something like that, well before my time
08:12 <+egbert> cat those people be reached? are they responsive?
08:12 <+alanc> still has lots of old board members with accounts listed - cworth, anholt, dberkholz, stuart anderson, kem
08:12 <+egbert> yeah, for the same reason i'm there as well.
08:12 <+alanc> don't whot & bensjc work in the same office or something?
08:12 <+egbert> i don't think this is a problem.
08:13 <+egbert> some may even use their accounts for mails.
08:13 < whot> alanc: not for the last 6 years. we aren't even in the same timezone :)
08:13 < whot> alanc: problem is he's a bit hard to reach these days, busy with kids and job
08:13 <+alanc> but you already know about our admin disaster that prevents all forward progress due to lack of warm bodies with passwords
08:13 <+alanc> just like we can't get anyone fd.o accounts
08:14 <+egbert> what we need is either someone from the board with root access or someone who is responsive.
08:14 <+alanc> pretty soon we'll have to move from fd.o to github if keithp can't get fd.o straightened out
08:14 < whot> there's an election pitch if I've ever heard one :)
08:15 <+egbert> this was something i mentioned in bordaux and was told there is no problem ....
08:15 < mupuf> well, as soon as daniels fixes up my root access
08:15 < mupuf> I'll be able to go throug the backlog of people requesting accounts
08:15 <+alanc> no, I'm pretty sure you were told there is a huge problem, and we were trying to get mupuf access to fix it
08:16 <+alanc> anyone who said there is no admin problem is utterly lying
08:16 < mupuf> I asked him last week but he was on holidays, he told me to send him an email and that he would fix it on monday ... but I forgot to send the email
08:16 <+egbert> point is: who is admin - if we can't even get this person to add mupuf?
08:16 < mupuf> I sent him a message 15 minutes ago
08:16 <+egbert> ok. now this is not first priority atm.
08:17 <+egbert> we need to get on expo.
08:17 <+alanc> but it's not a problem we can fix directly, only one we can pressure fd.o to fix - we don't own the machines, we use the services fd.o provides
08:17 <+egbert> i can start doing things and we can start the process once this is done.
08:17 < mupuf> we should check the logs from last year, but wasn't alanc the one who changed the DB?
08:18 <+alanc> yes, I did the DB work last year, since I was the election committee then
08:18 <+egbert> i believe i read this somewhere.
08:18 <+egbert> alanc: you didn't need root access?
08:18 <+alanc> no, just the mysql DBA password
08:19 <+egbert> ah, ok i can log into expo!
08:19 <+egbert> sorry. 
08:19 <+egbert> not as root though,
08:19 <+egbert> not sure if this will help me with the wiki as there is a separate account for that.
08:20 <+egbert> alanc: do you have the mysql DBA password?
08:20 <+alanc> found the election commitee mailing list password - it's already set up to the new members
08:20 <+alanc> must have done that a while ago
08:21 <+egbert> alanc: :)
08:21 <+alanc> egbert - look in the page I mailed you this morning
08:21 <+egbert> thx!
08:21 <+egbert> ah, ok.
08:21 <+alanc> guess we took care of the mailing list a while ago and forgot
08:23 < whot> ok, so what's our task list now? alanc, can you purge the db?
08:23 < whot> committee is the four members not for election
08:24 < whot> what's still missing now?
08:25 <+egbert> ok, can someone with the more knowledge on sql than me help me with the database?
08:26 < mupuf> not me then :D
08:26 < mupuf> last year, we joked about asking the only person here working for a DB company ;)
08:26 <+alanc> there's nothing to clear in the db
08:26 < mupuf> and I am not talking about the Deutsche Bahn here :D
08:27 <+alanc> all prior elections are still in the DB for historical record
08:27 <+egbert> expire the members and set access rights for the admins 
08:27 <+alanc> as far as I know there is the one DBA account and no one else to set access rights for
08:27 <+alanc> if you want your own account, you get to figure that out - I've never had one
08:28 <+egbert> no, the page you've sent me shows how to set admin rights.
08:28 <+egbert> for a. membership b. the ballot system
08:28 <+egbert> it suggests a procedure to follow.
08:28 <+alanc> oh, not db level, but in the membership application
08:29 <+egbert> you need to set the access rights in the members data base, don't you?
08:30 <+alanc> there are at least three different levels of authentication & account access here
08:30 <+alanc> unix account, mysql account, members/ballot app account
08:31 <+alanc> I can use the dba mysql account to update the access for your members/ballot app account
08:31 <+egbert> yes. as far as i understand, you get a different interface depending on how you are set up in the database.
08:31 <+alanc> you get extra buttons to see and review member applications
08:31 <+egbert> so someone needs to issue some sql statements to change that.
08:31 <+egbert> right.
08:32 <+alanc> I can do that
08:32 <+egbert> alanc: thanks!
08:32 -!- Irssi: #xf-bod: Total of 14 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 4 voices, 10 normal]
08:33 < whot> so once egbert has that he can expire members too?
08:33 <+egbert> if not i will ping alanc again tomorrow ;)
08:34 <+alanc> once egbert has that he can approve members
08:34 <+alanc> I have no idea how to expire them
08:34 <+alanc> don't see that in the wiki
08:34 <+egbert> is there a way even?
08:35 < mupuf> drop database users;
08:35 < mupuf> :D
08:35 <+alanc> the current app shows 482 expired members, 87 active, so there must be
08:35 <+egbert> i don't see any filed telling me if I'm currently active or not.
08:35 <+alanc> but this is a crappy app - never even got a "set password" interface, just a "mail me a new random string" option
08:37 <+egbert> yeah, but noone feels inclined to fix this either. for the last 11 years.
08:38 <+egbert> i guess we are thru with the election stuff. we still need to figure out how to expire members.
08:39 < whot> ok, can you give me a list of items for the minutes pls?
08:40 < whot> because I got a bit lost in the backlog here
08:40 <+egbert> whot: yeah, can try.
08:40 <+alanc> mysql> select firstname,lastname,admin from members where admin="Y";
08:40 <+alanc> +-----------+----------+-------+
08:40 <+alanc> | firstname | lastname | admin |
08:40 <+alanc> +-----------+----------+-------+
08:40 <+alanc> | Matt      | Dew      | Y     | 
08:40 <+alanc> | Keith     | Packard  | Y     | 
08:40 <+alanc> | Egbert    | Eich     | Y     | 
08:40 <+alanc> | Alex      | Deucher  | Y     | 
08:40 <+alanc> +-----------+----------+-------+
08:41 < whot> egbert: let's do it after the meeting
08:41 <+egbert> alanc: :) thx
08:41 <+egbert> whot: i'm composing an email while we are meeting
08:41 < whot> multitasking... I like it :
08:41 <+alanc> and 0 applications currently in the queue for new members
08:42 < whot> ok, next item on the agenda was the XDC 2015 decision
08:42 <+alanc> not that we've asked people to apply since last election
08:42 < whot> we said we'd vote today on boston vs toronto
08:42 < mupuf> we never heard back from boston, right?
08:43 < whot> we didn't have any questions for boston
08:43 < mupuf> that explains why then :D
08:43 <+keithp> having been there many times, what else would we need to know?
08:44 <+keithp> all though, january is a more traditional time of year
08:44 < stukreit> for maximum pain
08:44 <+alanc> not sure we'd know how to hold an XDC in Boston without snow
08:44 < agd5f> I need to leave in 5 to pick up my daughter
08:45 < whot> ok, let's speed this bit up: everyone ok to vote today or do we need to delay this again?
08:45 <+keithp> agd5f: do you have a preference for location?
08:45 < mupuf> on what criteria should we vote?
08:45 < agd5f> Toronto would be my preference, but I have no strong objections against Boston
08:46 <+keithp> mupuf: we've got two proposals and need to pick between them
08:46 < whot> mupuf: on the two proposals that were sent
08:46 < mupuf> I think you did not understand my question
08:46 < whot> ok, let's do this another way: I'll write up the two proposals again, compressed, and then we email-vote. how about that
08:46 < agd5f> +1 for that
08:47 <+egbert> what's the time line on the vote?
08:47 < mupuf> I meant, on what objective criterias should we vote. I did not ask for what options we had :D I'm aware of them
08:47 <+keithp> whot: sounds good. How about we chat about the two proposals here for  few minutes?
08:47 < whot> agd5f: ok, looks like you're dismissed then :)
08:47 < agd5f> I'll read the scroll back later.  bye!
08:48 <+keithp> In favor of toronto, I think that's mostly just that we haven't been there before
08:48 < stukreit> keithp: ditto
08:48 <+alanc> and it's not the US, which may bring a couple more Europeans, but not a ton
08:48 <+keithp> in terms of conference venue, it seems more challenging logistically; lodging and food being some distance aways
08:48 <+egbert> yeah, i feel the same way. my sentiments are like alex'
08:49 <+keithp> MIT has the advantage of being closer to housing and restaurants
08:49 < whot> Boston has a more restricted timeframe (Columbus Day 11-13 oct) but that may be flexible to some degree. Toronto is "free sep to oct"
08:50 < mupuf> allowing the neighbours from the north to have the XDC would show that it is not USA/Europe
08:50 < mupuf> but it is North America/Europe
08:50 < stukreit> symbolism!
08:50 < whot> Boston on C Day would be co-located with gnome summit
08:50 <+keithp> whot: I don't think MIT schedule is all that flexible; we need classrooms, and those are busy unless we use a weekend
08:51 < whot> yeah, true
08:51 < mupuf> I like the idea of going to the MIT because it is the point of origin of X
08:51 < mupuf> but AMD should also get a chance to host an XDC
08:51 <+keithp> Looking at the calendar, the only thing currently scheduled in october is linuxcon europe on 5-7
08:51 < whot> in the interest of disclosure, I'm biased to boston because Red Hat == boston
08:52 <+keithp> whot: could you get a boston visit on one end of a toronto visit?
08:52 < mupuf> toronto - boston, that's walking distance by US standards!
08:53 < whot> probably, but we can swell the numbers easier if in boston, much cheaper because we save on accommodation. but anyway, that's our problem
08:53 < stukreit> mupuf: we don't walk, not even from one end to another of the mall parking lot
08:53 <+keithp> stukreit: I have a walking commute these days
08:53 < marcoz> mupuf: just because we're fat, doesn't mean we have long legs.
08:54 < mupuf> keithp: from you bed to your living room?
08:54 < stukreit> really long legs
08:54 < mupuf> AHAH
08:54 <+keithp> mupuf: near the fire, yes. with the cat.
08:54 < mupuf> ah ah
08:54  * mupuf walks to Intel in the cold
08:55 <+keithp> mupuf: you'll escape finland eventually
08:55 <+keithp> everyone does
08:55 < mupuf> 10-15 minutes depending on how icy is the road (very slipery or extremelly slipery)
08:55 < stukreit> I'm more interested in seeing toronto, modulo boss letting me out of country 2 years in a row.
08:55 < mupuf> stukreit: boston or toronto, would it make a difference for him?
08:55 < whot> does canada count as international?
08:55 < stukreit> a little
08:56 <+keithp> whot: barely.
08:56 < mupuf> prices should be about the same, possibly cheaper than boston
08:56 < marcoz> so it sounds like it's mainly Boston is less flexible, but easier logistic.   Toronto is more flexible but more difficult logistics. ?
08:56 <+keithp> marcoz: agreed
08:56 <+alanc> our boss is british, it's all the former colonies to him
08:57 < stukreit> mupuf: toronto will be a more expensive ticket, so harder, but I'll still push.
08:57 <+egbert> doesn't canada have the queen as head of state?
08:57 < mupuf> I am not really in favour of a late XDC
08:57 < mupuf> but in both cases, we'll be in a university
08:57 <+keithp> late?
08:57 < mupuf> october
08:58 < mupuf> begining of september is perfect for students
08:58 <+egbert> we always aimed for september.
08:58 < mupuf> not last year
08:58 <+keithp> egbert: that's because weather in germany is great in september
08:58 < marcoz> TSA in the US is getting worse everytime I travel. Not sure if others are seeing that, but it defintely makes traveling across the US border more of a pain. (and I'm a US citizen)
08:58 <+egbert> right. this was the first time we broke the rule (at least in the later years)
08:59 <+egbert> yes, and my memories of logan are not very fond.
08:59 < mupuf> TSA? The Toilet Safety Administration?
08:59 < whot> marcoz: s/citizen/subject/ :)
09:00 <+egbert> mupuf: be careful what you say! if you want to go to xdc this year ;p
09:00 < whot> ok, so do I misread that or does everyone have a preference anyway?
09:00 <+egbert> whot: a slight preference, maybe.
09:00 < mupuf> whot: I don't
09:00 <+egbert> mupuf: you said you did!
09:01 < whot> ok, then we do the email thing, we're running out of time
09:01 < whot> I'll get the email out, but probably not until Tue (my time), it's a long weekend here
09:02 <+keithp> sounds good
09:02 <+keithp> thanks for chatting about the options; not sure we have a lot more info, but at least we have some opinions expressed
09:03 < whot> last item was SPI Q&A, not sure there is much anyway unless anyone has anything to add to the list I sent out
09:03 < whot> that should be sent out with/shortly after egbert's election announcement
09:04 < whot> until then we can append to it, after that it'll be the usual mess over email threads. i.e. we should move it to a wiki page too then
09:05 < whot> right now the biggest question is our corporation state vs 501c3 and what exactly happens after the merger and how we would give up/lose/keep the 501c3 status
09:05 < mupuf> egbert: nah, I merely said I was not in favour of a late XDC
09:05 < mupuf> I wouldn't mind going to Boston and seeing the MIT
09:05 < marcoz> i haven't been to either Toronto or Boston so I will lean towards whichever people think will encourage a better turnout.
09:05 <+egbert> mupuf: ah, ok. i was more thinking of your statement about the origin of X
09:05 < mupuf> but I have more friends in toronto :D
09:05 < mupuf> ah, that too
09:05 <+egbert> ok, spi Q&A?
09:05 <+egbert> i will set up a wiki page for this as well and add what we already have.
09:05 < mupuf> yes, let's talk about the SPI
09:05 <+egbert> also i would like to start the public q&a thing on this right when we start the election process.
09:05 < mupuf> agreed
09:05 <+egbert> as we don't need to wait for nominations on that one.
09:05 <+egbert> so next monday if everything works out well.
09:05 <+egbert> now where are we going to have the q&a session? members@ ?
09:05 < mupuf> yeah, let's not polute every ML
09:05 <+egbert> mupuf: can you post me the link for the bylaws on github?
09:05 < mupuf> egbert: they are on freedesktop
09:06 < mupuf> but we have no cgit for it
09:06 < mupuf> I'm sure this is nothing
09:06 < mupuf> but ... we don't have it
09:06 < stukreit> whot:  I suppose SPI knows the concise answer to that question
09:07 < whot> keithp: ^^ can I get you to follow that up pls?
09:07 <+keithp> hrm. toronto transit says there's a train running from york university GO to Union Station and takes 20 minutes
09:07 < whot> your contacts are better than mine :)
09:07 <+keithp> whot: will do
09:07 -!- Netsplit <-> quits: jcristau, dumbbell
09:07 < whot> plus you are closer to understanding US law than I am
09:07 <+keithp> whot: I'm not sure I understand the questions we need answers for though
09:08 < whot> I'll get them to you after the meeting
09:08 -!- Netsplit over, joins: dumbbell, jcristau
09:08 <+egbert> whot: keithp: can you put me in the loop?
09:08 <+keithp> egbert: of course
09:08 <+egbert> i would like to sum up all this on a q&a wiki page.
09:09 < whot> q&a session - how about an IRC session first
09:09 < whot> then we can write up the q&a and have a mailing based one after that (when the first one hopefully answered most common questions)
09:11 <+egbert> whot: for q&a mails are better ihmo
09:11 < whot> ok, fine with that too given the timezone issues
09:12 <+egbert> right, this was also a point i was just going to mention.
09:12 <+egbert> ah, forgot!
09:13 <+egbert> for the election announcement: will we have a separate vote for the bylaws and spi or is accepting the bylaws tantamount to voting for spi?
09:13 < whot> we don't need to change the bylaws unless we merge with spi
09:14 <+egbert> yeah, ok. the bylaws would be worth changing even if there was no spi ;)
09:14 < whot> unless you want to make a diff for adding wayland/drm/mesa vs adding spi and vote on the two separately
09:14 <+alanc> we were supposed to change them for 501(c)3 requirements last year, but never did - merging with spi would replace that
09:15 <+egbert> yeah, this and other stuff ...
09:16 < mupuf> egbert: other stuff?
09:16 < mupuf> I moved to git to allow people to review changes ... as they usually do
09:16 <+egbert> mupuf: you have read them, you must know!
09:16 <+egbert> nah, never mind.
09:17 < mupuf> well, I had to rewrite them :D
09:17 < mupuf> so, yes
09:17 <+egbert> unless you used cut-n-paste ;)
09:18 < mupuf> but I don't remember anything in particular that was really outdated ... except the problem with the scope
09:18 < whot> ok, we're well overtime now, we should wrap this up
09:18 < mupuf> there was also potentially an issue with something else
09:18 <+egbert> mupuf: i still have to read your new version.
09:18 < mupuf>
09:18 < mupuf> for the moment, read them from here
09:19 < mupuf> I don't know why the official bylaws are not displayed in cgit
09:19 < whot> probably a missing git-daemon-export-ok
09:19 < mupuf> I have been looking and it does not seem like rights
09:19 <+alanc> btw, mupuf & whot are the most recently added users on expo & in the board wiki, so someone must have had the magic when they joined
09:19 < mupuf> nope, it is there
09:20 < whot> alanc: daniels
09:20 < whot> alanc: see email " Re: Accounts on &
09:21 <+alanc> then egbert just needs to hunt down and capture daniels
09:21 < mupuf> egbert: here is a pokeball
09:21 < whot> we should wrestle a root account from him too :)
09:22 < mupuf> not sure if I can be root on anarchy
09:22 < whot> egbert: meanwhile, mail me whatever you want me to do on expo and I'll get it done
09:23 < whot> ok, I gotta go guys, any last things to add?
09:23 <+egbert> whot: i will set up the wiki for the members on the fd.o wiki.
09:23 <+egbert> so i should get by fine.
09:23 <+alanc> not from me
09:23 <+egbert> just if we need to update our internal notes i should have access to the board wiki on expo.
09:24 <+egbert> ok, is there anything else left?
09:24 <+egbert> i'd like to go to bed ;)
09:26 < whot> ok. I'll scramble up some minutes later today and send them out. Meanwhile, thanks for attending, see you in 2 weeks
09:26 <+egbert> ok, thanks everybody!
09:26 <+egbert> good night ;)
09:28 < mupuf> whot: thanks
09:28 < mupuf> see you all guys!